The Lost Art of Relationship-Driven Sales with Chris Belli

[00:00:52] And he had a lot of really good thoughts on the power of relationships and the differences in selling a service [00:01:00] and software and kind of the blending of those two worlds and the things that could be taken, both that are, that are good. Yeah. From the service space, which is really, I think the power of relationships and selling your yourself. And then your business and then your product, and then how that sorta can overlay and some of the things that can be taken from that service thought and mindset to the software space.

[00:01:26] So phenomenal conversation. Great. Really enjoyed it. It was, it was awesome. So let’s get it started.

[00:01:35] Um, why don’t you just, you know, kind of bring me up to speed in terms of how you got, it’s got to Indianapolis, how you got connected with the Studio Science guys, and just a little bit about your career and how you got here.

[00:01:48] Chris: [00:01:48] Yes. So I arrived in Indianapolis. Um, I’ve been at acuity just on four years. Um, And so I arrived in Indianapolis, um, interviewed [00:02:00] around with a bunch of companies that, um, not all of them you’re familiar with and my resume, um, kind of highlighted that they weren’t really familiar with companies, um, that I was spruiking on my resume.

[00:02:11] I thought I had a pretty solid resume in sales and lots of things, but, um, it was really difficult. Cool for me to kind of get my foot in the door anywhere. Um, even after 15 years of experience, 15 years experiencing in sales. Um, but Studio Science were, you know, I was fortunate enough that, uh,  who was president at the time, um, really took a chance on me.

[00:02:34] And I really became the first official sales person that studio science had in, uh, at the time was 16 year history of, of the organization.

[00:02:44] Brad: [00:02:44] Now how’d you get to, so it sounded like based on your comments there, that you guys had sort of predetermined that you were going to move to Indianapolis.

[00:02:51] Chris: [00:02:51] Yep. So, um, my, uh, my wife is from originally from Southern Indiana.

[00:02:56] Um, we’d been living in Melbourne for the better part of maybe 10 or [00:03:00] 12 years. And I just thought while the kid was still young, I had the ability to apply for a green card. Um, why not have a look at the United States? And, um, in my mind, I had some cities that, uh, I wanted to potentially look at, um, Uh, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, uh, Chicago, um, Columbus, Ohio, Indianapolis, uh, as far South as Nashville, Tennessee.

[00:03:26] Um, so that was just kind of, it was all within a certain geographic radius of Indianapolis, but we made the decision, um, to, you know, Establish ourselves in Indianapolis, registered the kids into school and went about searching for a job.

[00:03:43] Brad: [00:03:43] How long have you actually been here in Indianapolis or in Indiana?

[00:03:48] Chris: [00:03:48] Uh, in Indiana. Uh, we arrived on the 7th of August, I believe 2016. So just over four years.

[00:03:57] Brad: [00:03:57] Okay. So you’ve been here. So I grew up here in [00:04:00] Indianapolis. The tech scene has dramatically changed. Over over a decade. Um, and you, you know, you’ve kind of been on the tail end or really in the prime of watching all of this technology transformation.

[00:04:14] Um, what have your thoughts been on, um, what’s happening here in Indianapolis as it pertains to tech and software as an outsider?

[00:04:22] Chris: [00:04:22] Yeah, so I was fortunate that even though I came in with very little knowledge of the local tech scene Studio Science had worked with. Um, the tech leaders of, of, of Indiana, of the country for a number of years.

[00:04:40] And so always able to come up to spit all the heroes it was of, of local, um, local technology. Have had, you know, studio science has played a hand in a lot of those companies. So yeah, when I robbed a studio science studio, science had been, I believe, agency of record, for instance, target for many years, I’m going from [00:05:00] when exact target with 200 employees and maybe 10 million in revenue.

[00:05:03] All the way up to their acquisition by Salesforce. Um, and, and to this day, Studio Science continues to work with, I think, up to a hundred, even Salesforce clouds across the country. So not only marketing cloud here in Indianapolis, but, um, commerce cloud in Boston and sales cloud. Yeah. Service cloud. So we’ve got a deep relationship there.

[00:05:22] So I was, I was brought up to speed very quickly on, on the Salesforce connection. In addition to that studio science, the founding five. All of our own tech startups that, um, a very, um, kind of visible in Indianapolis. One of those being Lessonly Max Yoder was employed as Studio Science. The other one was Tinderbox, which then became Octiv, which was then acquired by Conga.

[00:05:50] And so, um, and then there’s a couple of others. Then the other thing that’s got the tight connection, Kristian Andersen,  who founded Studio Science. Um, [00:06:00] He, yeah, he became a partner or a founding partner, um, with the High Alpha guys. And we actually had a design team embedded at high alpha for the first three years of High Alpha.

[00:06:11] So all of the companies that came out of High Alpha venture studio were had. Uh, impacted or had Al um, unique design, um, on those companies, because now we’re at design is working on the product.

[00:06:25] Brad: [00:06:25] Well, you know, you talked a little bit about Studio Science. I know some of our listeners are not here in Indiana.

[00:06:31] Um, and you may be able to piece together some of what Studio Science does, but can you, can you call it a walk through for our listeners that don’t know about Studio Science, um, exactly what they do and kind of their. How they they’re all the different arms that they’re involved in.

[00:06:48] Chris: [00:06:48] Yeah. So I mean, Studio Science, um, is a design and innovation agency.

[00:06:53] Uh, you know, the, the elevator pitches, we designed bid, um, brands, products, and [00:07:00] services for companies by helping companies understand what their customers want. Um, in our. Um, experience the only thing that truly differentiates one company from another, um, is the experience that that company provides to their customer.

[00:07:18] So by understanding the customer, we can then create a brand, a product or a service that meets and exceeds their expectation and differentiates them from their competitors. How we do that is we have a few practice areas, but we have a research and strategy practice area that, um, Yeah, helps a company find it’s unique, the value proposition in the market by amplifying the customer’s expectation, but also aligning with key internal stakeholders.

[00:07:47] What the vision of the company, uh, then you know, more of the strategy is established. The brand team is responsible for, um, brand positioning messaging. All of the visuals. [00:08:00] And that goes along with brand, uh, more than just brand, more than just aesthetics. And then we have a website team that, um, you know, helps companies articulate what that message is via the company’s most public facing asset, which is the website.

[00:08:17] And then we also have a digital product team. Um, which is responsible for creating mobile apps. Um, yeah. And, you know, dashboards, portals, um, UI, UX onboarding and things like that. So, Um, you know, we’ve got, uh, we’ve got, uh, hands in a few different parts. I think what you said, sorry. Fingers in a few different parts.

[00:08:35] I think what you said, you know, we’ve got a few little different ops, tactically it’s strategy, brand design, website design, and digital product design. But, um, more importantly, and what provides more value to organizations is creating a unique experience for their customers that differentiates them from their competitors.

[00:08:54] Brad: [00:08:54] And then you, you mentioned, I want to sort of go back real quick. That was a great recap. Um, for those that don’t [00:09:00] know about Studio Science, you mentioned that you came in really as the first a, what was that experience like sort of breaking ground on being the first person to expand the product line outside of the founders and the initial team?

[00:09:16] Chris: [00:09:16] Uh, it took me a minute. It took me four or five months, but I was licking my lips. I mean, this thing, this was a business that. It really didn’t have any, um, diligence or rigor around it. The sales process, because for 16 years, um, Kristian was the site sales person and the marketer of studio science. Um, he’s a big, big personality.

[00:09:41] Um, and he’s, uh, he’s a expert networker, um, you know, instantly kind of likable. And so he was just walking around town, drumming up business at will. Without really, um, I don’t know if he really had any kind of structure around it. So when Kristian left Studio Science [00:10:00] to,  um, to do High Alpha, basically all of that marketing and thought leadership went from 54 Monument Circle where our office is.

[00:10:11] to 55 Monument Circle where High Alpha office is. So whenever the IBJ needed a quote on what was happening in the tech scene, that we’re now referencing Kristian Andersen and from High Alpha, not Kristian Andersen from Studio Science and rightly so, he was working for High Alpha. So coming into, um, Studio Science was, um, it was a blank slate.

[00:10:31] The company had a really good core group of foundational clients, such as Salesforce marketing cloud. Um, but really hadn’t. Applaud any, um, it, it was almost like a car that’s relative tires are spinning. All it needed was someone to apply some weight, um, to the, to the trunk to get a little bit of traction and off it went.

[00:10:55] So we’ve, since I started, we’ve had an incredible run of growth. I’m [00:11:00] for 20 year old agency to, to have the growth that we continue to have year over year. And even through COVID where up an extraordinary amount, because our work is valuable to organizations, but it wasn’t because I was in as the sales person.

[00:11:13] Um, I’d like to tell you that I’m, I’m really good at it and things like that, but it was just creating a process and helping people within studio science to understand that this is how we’re going to build this business and we’re going to build it, um, through sales and we have a very team based. Sales environment with our subject matter experts that, uh, the department heads, um, uh, actively involved in sales.

[00:11:36] And so, uh, as a group it’s, you know, coming in as the first sales person, it was just a matter of, um, as I said, really applying some weight to the back of that car to get traction.

[00:11:48] Brad: [00:11:48] Well, I know, I know a lot of agencies sort of struggle. To build the sales team. And I know you guys are hiring and I, and I sort of have two questions for you.

[00:12:00] [00:12:00] Um, one is why do you think agencies struggle at, at scaling the server or scaling the business from a sales perspective? And then what kind of traits do you look for in that, in that role of an AE?

[00:12:15] Chris: [00:12:15] So I guess my opinion is, is, you know, I’ll. I’ll put my hand up and say, my opinion is only my opinion. I can’t speak for everybody, but I personally believe that, um, software, um, and software and it’s intended to enable salespeople, um, has hurt salespeople.

[00:12:34] Um, and I think the software industry and how, how you sell in the software industry has, has hurt people. So, um, the more junior salespeople or junior South, but when they grow into an organization, they aren’t being taught. How to prospect business, um, there’s an expectation that the software or the company that they’re working with, um, will do all the heavy lifting for them or the roles that I’m hiring for.

[00:12:57] I’m looking for someone with the ability to build their own [00:13:00] book of business and understand, um, how to prospect and create they’re on outrage. I think what’s lost with the modern day SDR that works for. Works for a software company is they’re given lists and they’re expected just to hit the phone.

[00:13:14] They’ve lost that they’ve lost that ability to connect with people on a personal level. And then I think at the other end with the account executives far too many of them have gone through the, the, I guess the software industry where they’re expected that the SDRs are going to do all the work. And they’re just coming in to close deals, um, in a services firm, we can’t turn the tap on and create.

[00:13:37] More software licenses. I can’t, you know, if, if I bring a million dollar deal to the table tomorrow, um, I have to divide that by the elderly. Right. And that’s how many hours on need people. Right. Do so I think Christian used to say, we sell brains by the hour. Um, I need to hire more people. So you gotta be.

[00:13:57] Very careful how quickly you grow, because you always have [00:14:00] to make sure that you’re staffing for it. Um, whereas I think that the software sales, because they can just keep pumping out licenses, um, can scale much faster. So the need to, or the desire to get more leads in the door, um, is of greater importance.

[00:14:14] Whereas for me, the relationship building is, is of greater importance.

[00:14:19] Brad: [00:14:19] Do you feel like on the software side, I mean, I do. That was one of the things that Kiel mentioned that you guys had talked about. In the, kind of the pre-interview was the power of relationships. And I think relationships significantly matter.

[00:14:34] I think one of the challenges in the software or space particularly is there’s an overemphasis on, um, ROI on everything and relationships are really channeling  to, to develop yup. An ROI. And a good example would be early on in our business. We didn’t have Salesforce integration. And, um, we could very specifically clearly tie the fact that we didn’t have it to deals.

[00:15:00] [00:15:00] And there were all these other little features that over time as we’ve grown our business, um, we’ve added things like call recordings and no one is ever called us. People would call us early on when we didn’t have Salesforce integration and say, I’m not buying your product because you don’t have this.

[00:15:17] But the little features, like when we added call recordings, nobody ever didn’t buy our product because we didn’t have call recordings, but we also could never quantify that. We could never say, Hey, somebody didn’t do this. It was sort of this loose feature. And we knew that it had an impact because when we added it to the product, the company grew, but we couldn’t really attach a specific event to that.

[00:15:41] And that’s how I think about relationships is relationships in a software business. People want to say, show me the relationship and then show me the money and relationships just don’t work like that.

[00:15:55] Chris: [00:15:55] Yeah. A hundred percent. And, um, [00:16:00] my. I mean, I guess to a fault, I treat every interaction that I have equally.

[00:16:06] Um, even though they’re potentially maybe not qualified opportunities, is it the time? But if, but if you do treat every opportunity equally, you may not get the deal immediately. But eventually, if you’ve done your job, right, and you’ve built a relationship, you will get that opportunity when it comes up.

[00:16:26] Sometimes it’s a timing thing. You could have the best relationship in the world with someone, but if they’ve just relaunched their brand or relaunched their website, they’re not going to, they’re not going to redo it again. Cause they lock, you build the relationship. And in 12 months, time, two years time, if they need to redo it, you’re front of mind.

[00:16:43] And uh, you know, I’ve got. Um, know without sharing client details, but, you know, we had relaunched a client website, um, a couple of years ago, just a matter of keeping a astound relationship with that person that when they spun off one of their, um, I guess [00:17:00] subsidiaries, they came try to us. We weren’t even in a competitive pitch, we just won the work and not to say we didn’t work hard for it as far as pricing and things like that.

[00:17:08] But, um, to be able to go into, to be able to be going to any. New business opportunity, knowing that you’re the only vendor that they’re considering is, is validation that you’ve done your job right now.

[00:17:22] Brad: [00:17:22] How do you look for as you’re scaling? How many guys are on your sales team today?

[00:17:27] Uh, today? Uh, it’s

[00:17:30] Chris: [00:17:30] a difficult, the one actual true salespeople.

[00:17:32] Um, I am, um, One off, uh, I have an account executive that looks after the one major account only, and then I am hiring for it again and executive. Um, and potentially I am hiring an account executive and a sales development representative. So there’d be four of us total, but I think, as I said, previously, it’s a real team based selling environment.

[00:17:56] Um, and so once we get, you know, once an [00:18:00] opportunity’s in the door, um, it not necessarily me, that’s always closing that deal. Um, sometimes it’s the CX managers, sometimes it’s the department heads, um, and, and we work together on it and we’re all compensated and rewarded for, for team results.

[00:18:18] Brad: [00:18:18] Now do you think commisions, so that’s an interesting, um, kind of thought there.

[00:18:24] How do you feel, do you feel like commissions and how salespeople are paid in the software space, um, is different or affects how people think about getting compensated in the service space?

[00:18:38] Chris: [00:18:38] Yeah, I do think they’re different. Um, because software sales is more transactional. I F I feel it’s more transactional, whereas professional services, aye.

[00:18:51] Someone shouldn’t not get a bonus just because they. Um, maybe hadn’t had add the results that they expected to [00:19:00] have, or they didn’t actually close the business that they brought in the door. It was left to me or someone else to close. Um, just having an, having contribution to the pipeline is much more important for me, um, than it is actual.

[00:19:15] Um, what, what deal you can put your name again? And the reason why I say that is because I’m also aware that. Some people just don’t gel with some people, you know, it’s like horses for courses, right. If you can bring me a deal and I’ve done it myself, where I’ve took myself out of the deal, because for some reason there just wasn’t that connection.

[00:19:34] Or there was someone internal that was probably more suited to handle the negotiation on the deal than that was made. Um, not to say that I didn’t play my part by bringing it in. Um, and so I think with the, with the way that the software guys. And, and I’m not an expert on this, but it’s a numbers game.

[00:19:54] And sometimes the numbers actually don’t translate to longterm [00:20:00] partnerships and things like that. Yeah.

[00:20:02] Brad: [00:20:02] I, I, you know, we had a, um, so we’re going through some, some internal kind of client discussions and we had a client yesterday who we talked with and the guy that sold the account. Um, did a phenomenal job, but this individual was very reserved.

[00:20:20] And in my interaction with him, it became very apparent that I could not have sold to this person because he was, my energy would, would sort of be deflective of, um, him accomplishing when he wanted to accomplish. But the guy that sold to him was very natural, understandable, natural that they had a great relationship.

[00:20:38] And so I think that’s a key, I think that’s a key point is. Whether you’re selling software service, there’s some personalities that just are gonna fit better with other people on your sales team.

[00:20:48] Chris: [00:20:48] And then there’s also the personality that can really understand, um, you know, read a room or read a situation, know when to push know when to back off, know when to revisit, [00:21:00] um, you know, really keep, uh, keep your finger on the pulse of what’s happening.

[00:21:04] Um, And I think that’s, I don’t know if it’s something that can be taught, but I think with young salespeople, they’re sometimes they’re so aggressive. Isn’t the right word. They’re so enthusiastic. Every deal needs to close tomorrow. And it’s sometimes hard to teach them that, you know, you’re going to have to give this person a little bit of time to marinate, um, because they’re just not quite ready.

[00:21:26] Brad: [00:21:26] Right. Well, and I think it’s difficult. So you brought up a really good point, which is probably things that you look for in a salesperson. Know when to push, know when to pull.

[00:21:34] I know one of the challenges is, is when you come, I think you’ll learn that over time. Um, as a salesperson, you start to be able to read a room and really understand, you know, the dynamics of the personalities that you’re selling to.

[00:21:46] I do think there’s a lot of damage in the software space and early software us, or just salespeople in general, whether it’s software service. Is that, um, certain sales, certain organizations will run them through [00:22:00] maybe a Sandler or, um, kind of a high end training program. And when, when they come out and sell, you can tell that they’re going through the motions and that they don’t understand what they’re actually doing.

[00:22:14] So they’re doing all the things the coach tells them to do, but it’s almost like my kids when I tell them that to do certain things. There’s a difference between doing it and then knowing why you’re doing it. And, um, early, you know, I think that’s a real mishap that sales teams make is not helping their salespeople understand, um, why they’re doing what they’re, what they’re doing.

[00:22:38] And I think empathy is really important in the sales cycle, um, and, and understanding the personalities of the people that you’re selling to. And I can be very misguided if you, if you don’t understand those things.

[00:22:52] Chris: [00:22:52] Yeah. I think empathy is a good word because you need to take the time to understand what the customer’s pain point is.

[00:23:00] [00:23:00] And I think people jumped straight into trying to sell the solution without actually listening. And you’re right. They’re going through it’s, it’s almost like a script and, um, w you know, kind of a script or process the amount of times that I get the call, a call from the same person three weeks in a row.

[00:23:19] Who’s forgotten that they’ve called me the week before now. Uh, I like to learn a lot about my prospects before I call them. But surely if you’re calling a guy in Indiana with an Australian accent, you would remember that. And it’s, you know, the frustrating to have the conversation we spoke last week.

[00:23:36] Remember? Yeah. Do you, you got to do your work. Someone once told me you sell yourself first. You sell the company that you’re representing second and you sell the product third, because if you’ve sold yourself effectively, if you’ve taken the time to understand what their needs and they lock you because your listener, then you sell your company.

[00:23:56] If they lock the company, by the time you get to the product, um, it pretty [00:24:00] much starts to sell itself. Whereas all my interactions with software people is they jumped straight into the solution. What if I don’t have that need for that solution? That’s, you know, that’s where they fall off.

[00:24:12] Brad: [00:24:12] What was a piece of advice that you got early on, um, that really helped evolve this kind of, or reinforce this relationship approach that you have?

[00:24:22] Chris: [00:24:22] Yeah. I think that the, I mentioned it earlier, that is you sell yourself first, your company second, and eventually the product or service that you’re selling should sell itself. If you’ve done steps one and two. Correct. Um, the other thing that I got and this ties back into my, um, Every sales person needs to understand how to, um, through business development.

[00:24:43] My very first boss who was, yeah. Still to this day, I think yeah, more from women. My first two years in sales than I have in my, my next book, Dane, um, he always encouraged us to build a book of business within the company. So almost have a [00:25:00] company within the company. Um, that you need to, if this, if, if that book of business was your actual business, how intimately do you need to know these clients?

[00:25:10] You know, when you know, how intimately do you need to know their spending patterns or their buying patterns or their decision making progress process and things like that. And then, so what I, what I was able to do there was understanding that the, um, that the dollar amount of business that I had, um, within that organization, Uh, at the time, I probably didn’t truly understand it, but I did what he said and I’ll work very hard at it.

[00:25:35] And people saw that. And when I left to do, um, to pursue another opportunity, literally the day after I left competing, um, companies were calling basically saying, what’s your next step? Knowing that I had X amount, you know, I had a book of business that would not transfer. That would not stay with the company.

[00:25:54] They would stay with me.

[00:25:56] Brad: [00:25:56] I think strong, you know, particularly on the service side, I mean, you’re selling [00:26:00] services, you are selling, they’re buying you, they’re buying trust. And I think that’s one of the challenges that if you’ve been selling software and you try to go to a service space, It can be very difficult to sell services because you’re not pointing to a thing you’re pointing to yourself.

[00:26:18] You’re saying, Hey, you’ve got to, you’ve got to know me. You’ve got to trust me, you’re buying me. And I think that that can be very difficult for some personalities.

[00:26:27] Chris: [00:26:27] It’s, it’s not an easy sell. Um, but once you’ve got your head around it and once you, and I think once you understand that, uh, and once you understand.

[00:26:37] It’s not only you’re buying person, but you’re also buying the experience. So if you are too, I mean, if you’re looking at it’s like what we do for our, for our clients, there are lots of design and innovation agencies. They’re like studio science that do very good work without question. There are some [00:27:00] really, really good yeah.

[00:27:00] Agencies out there. And I won’t shy away from that. But when you’re selecting an agency, look at the people that you’re potentially going to be in a longterm engagement with. And what is the experience that they’re going to provide for you now at the end of the day, the work might be great or the work might be good and you’re going to be happy with it, but what is it, but how has the six months been.

[00:27:26] Mentally for you. How’s the relationship you’ve been that got you to the end and what I can say with my hand on my heart is that the experience that studio science provides for its clients is second to none. The work is obviously exceptional, um, and I’ll promote the professionalism and our craft, um, all day long.

[00:27:45] But in addition to that, the experience that a client, um, receives working with studio science, um, Is second to none. And that ties back to you’re buying people. You’re not buying a thing, you know, buying a material object. [00:28:00] Often times

[00:28:02] Brad: [00:28:02] Chris, I could talk to you for hours. This has been a great, this has been a great conversation.

[00:28:06] I think we’re getting close to the end here. Is there anything specific, um, that, that you want to talk about or anything specific you wanted me to ask that I didn’t get to.

[00:28:16] Chris: [00:28:16] No, I think, I mean the conversation, you know, again, I guess back to the start, these are only my opinion. Um, you know, the relationship selling is a little bit hard to measure, uh, but certainly on making sure, you know, diligently making sure that any opportunity that comes into our pipeline, um, has the appropriate attribution, whether that’s a conference or whether it’s an existing customer, we literally know where everyone’s coming from.

[00:28:41] And. Um, yeah, we’ve shaped, you know, up until this point, we’ve shaped out our strategy and business development strategy around, um, human interaction. And we’re very good at that. Um, but I think the fundamental difference is, you know, good salespeople, whether they’re selling software, whether they’re selling [00:29:00] services should understand that the relationship is absolutely key to being a successful salesperson.

[00:29:09] Brad: [00:29:09] I want to thank Chris Belli again for being a part of the conversation this afternoon. If you want to learn more about Chris, you can go to www.studioscience.com. And as always, if you want to hear more of our content, you can go to monsterconnect.com/podcast. It’s been a great week and we look forward to another great week and remember, don’t let what you can’t do interfere with what you can.